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Harjit: Ready?

Bushra: Here we go again.

Margaux: Welcome to the "Bundle Of Hers." This is Margaux, and today, considering that interviews are coming up for premeds and fourth-years alike, we figured it would be interesting to talk about the stress that we all felt when deciding what to wear for an interview, as if the interviews aren't stressful enough. Am I right?

Harjit: Yes, completely right. That was a stressful time, yo.

Margaux: So I think as women, and I can't speak for men too much, but as a woman, and I think women in general in society tend to put unnecessary stress and emphasis on how we look, what we wear, and even down to our accessories, and our purses, and jewelry, and stuff like that. And when we're in a situation, like an interview, when we actually feel very judged, it can just amplify that stress.

I usually don't put too much emphasis into the outfits that I wear. I don't know, I wouldn't consider myself a fashionista, right? And so, for me, going into an interview, it was really the first time that I felt like I had to pay attention to these things. And I think that I put all this unnecessary stress on myself.

I watched tons of YouTube stories and tutorials on makeup and on all this. And now coming out on the other end of being in medical school, surviving the interviews, I would say it was not necessary to stress that much.

Bushra: Why do you feel like you were so worried about what to wear for the interview?

Margaux: I think it comes back to society. I feel like society tells me that how I look as a woman is very important. So, for example, how many times did Hillary Clinton get criticized for whether she was smiling enough or the color of pantsuit that she was wearing during the elections, right? That's what society tells us as women, is that what you wear, how you look, and how you act matters.

So, naturally, going into an interview where I feel judged and I am being graded against other people, I feel like that is a component I should be worried about because of what society says. But now I would say that's stupid and I shouldn't have worried about it.

Leen: Actually, I think part of the premed program, when you got to the application cycle, at least at my university, we had a lecture about how you have to dress. And so they said, "You can't wear this color, and you can't wear this color, and you can't do this, and you can't do this." So that's where the importance of it came. And they would always tell us horror stories of students who didn't make it because they wore the color green or something, and it's like, "What?"

Harjit: Oh, no.

Bushra: Was this catered to women specifically or both genders?

Leen: So it's funny, because the lecture was catered to men. The lecturer said, "I don't know what women should wear, but wear modestly." And I thought that was not very helpful. And then the rest of the whole entire lecture was for men, "Make sure you get this type of cross stitch and not this cross stitch." And it was like, "Okay, so that's all for men. What do we do?"

Bushra: That's so interesting, because I think I've come across the same thing too. Because the advice that people have for men specifically, it's down to the details. Like, "You should wear a tie, you should wear a suit and a jacket, and these are the colors that you should stick to," and X, Y, and Z. And then the advice given to women is, "Make sure you're not showing too much skin, basically."

Harjit: Yeah. But I feel like that's a general theme in society. Like, no one wants to figure out what do women want, because no one really cares about what they think. I mean, is that a general statement?

Bushra: I think that's a harsh statement to make, but . . .

Harjit: I know, but . . .

Bushra: . . . I think there are some areas where it's definitely true, 100%. But I think that there are remnants of "this is a man's world" kind of thing in our society.

Leen: Yeah. Petticoats.

Bushra: And it comes to fruition in things like an interview process, like professional interviews, all this kind of thing. And I think that's when we as women start feeling that kind of stress on us.

Harjit: Yeah, I would agree. I think that a lot of it is amplified maybe, like as Leen had said, during that premed time. But I would say this is kind of a general theme throughout my life. I've always felt like the way I look, the way people will see me, that's important, and that's the first thing they'll notice about me, and it'll be a lasting impression. Now I feel like that's important, don't get me wrong. But I think it's also important that we understand people for who they are and not what they wear.

Bushra: I had this thought process of most interviews are business formal. And basically, they want you to put your best foot forward. But part of me is like, "I want to see what your worst foot is." If I'm interviewing you to do a job or to get into a med school, I want to see the worst part about you, because ultimately, that's the reason why I wouldn't choose you.

And so I almost feel like it would be . . . if we had a casual day, wear what you would normally wear, just get a sense for who you are as a person, that would be more conducive to the interview process and getting to know the applicant for who they are, and not just what they want you to see.

Harjit: Also, going with that, I think what we wear is really an extension of ourselves. So when we are expected to dress a different way, it's like you're missing a whole part of myself. And honestly, the way I dress is really a huge extension of who I am and what type of person I am.

Margaux: Yeah. So, Bushra, building off of your comment of if it was casual wear, it would be very interesting to see everybody's personalities come out. But I think that's originally why, when it was mostly men interviewing for medical school, they said formal wear, because then they all looked the same and then the immediate judgment on what you're wearing and your person . . . like, the immediate visual judgment is not as strong if everybody looks the same. Do you know what I mean? And then the personalities come out more in the interview.

Harjit: That's interesting. I didn't know that.

Bushra: I still don't agree with it.

Margaux: No, I don't . . .

Bushra: It's like homogenizing the whole process. I don't know.

Margaux: Right. I'm saying I think that's probably maybe why it is the way it is. But now enter women into the equation, and we're lucky on one end that we have so many different options to wear for professional clothing, but then that messes with the original idea of not judging people on your first look.

But I agree with you, Bushra. I think there's so much personality that could come out in what you wear and how you present yourself that could be important to an interview.

Leen: Can we talk about how expensive it is for women, professional clothing?

Harjit: Girl, yes.

Leen: There are never sales or anything for professional women clothing. I feel like . . . I don't know. My brothers, they go to the store and they're like, "Look, I got this suit 50% off." I'm like, "Yeah, that would never happen for women."

Bushra: Yeah. I spend a lot of time with interview wear, and a lot of money, and a lot of thought process in what I should wear. If I should wear heels or not. If I should . . . I usually gear towards dresses. And I felt like maybe I should wear a pantsuit kind of thing to make myself more, I don't know, professional. And so the thought process of, "Okay, how much should I spend? Oh my gosh, I'm spending way too freaking much on this. And also, why should they care what I decide to wear anyway if it's appropriate?"

Harjit: Yeah. Can you maybe elaborate more on the story of how you picked your interview outfit? And I think we all should talk about that a bit.

Bushra: So I went shopping with my mom, which I love to go shopping, but shopping with my mom is literally the worst. We just have two different styles, and so that was an added pressure. But I went to a bunch of different places, tried a bunch of things on. And it's like, "Oh, this is too booby, and this is too short." This is too this, this is too that.

And so it was a hard process to find a couple . . . you need a couple of good outfits for your interviews. And so I can't just go into the freaking store and buy the same in four different colors. That's not how things usually pan out.

And then also I wore heels to my first interview, and then after that I was like, "Suck that." They looked great, but they hurt at the end of the day.

Harjit: I know.

Bushra: And I was like, "Nope, I'm wearing flats. I don't care what anybody thinks." As far as makeup goes, you guys know I love makeup. I love makeup.

Harjit: Yes. And you're so good at it though.

Bushra: And so they usually recommend to wear makeup, but also it has to be very toned down and very . . .

Harjit: Natural.

Bushra: . . . natural. Whatever the hell that means. I decided against that. I actually went with a really bold lip every single time just to kind of like, "This is who I am." So that's the one part of me I can actually express. I don't know. I don't regret it. I got into med school at the end of the day, and I don't think my lip color had anything to do with it.

So what about you guys? Margaux?

Margaux: That's awesome, Bushra. I also went shopping with my mom. But usually, I don't like to go shopping with her because she has very different taste than me. But in terms of professional clothes, I think it was okay this time. She actually had a pretty good taste and idea about it.

So, for me, the first thing I decided was that I mostly wanted to be comfortable and knowing that . . . or at least I read online that if you wear a skirt, you have to wear pantyhose, and I hate pantyhose. I can't even put them on without tearing them anyway, so that was totally not an option.

Harjit: The struggle.

Margaux: I went with a pantsuit and a neutral color gray. And then I bought a pink shirt to go under to try to stand out a little bit, and I ended up going with a white shirt on my interview days.

But as you may remember from the earlier episodes, I interviewed twice. I got waitlisted the first year. And so the first time I interviewed, I spent so much time and stress about the suit and the shoes and the makeup. I watched so many YouTube tutorials because, unlike Bushra, I usually just slap on some mascara and call it good. So I went to the makeup counter and learned how to do the . . . what did they call it? The "no makeup" makeup look is what I went with.

Bushra: Skill.

Margaux: Yeah. And down to what kind of bag and shoes. It was so stressful.

And after the second time when I was interviewing, I actually didn't care that much. I was like, "You know what? Having seen other women and other interviewees in the previous year gave me a little bit of reassurance that we all can dress within this standard of professional and that looks a little bit different for each woman, but I'm not going to be judged on all the little details."

So the second time around, I definitely didn't stress about it. I wore the same suit, the same white shirt, the same shoes, and then some purse that I didn't really think too much about. And now I'm here.

And so I would recommend . . . for me, at least, the most important thing was being comfortable.

Bushra: Yeah. I think that should be everyone's number one priority.

Harjit: Number one.

Bushra: I mean, look cute too, but also, you're going to be there for probably eight hours that day, so you want to be as comfortable as you can be. And it's not a good look to go into an interview and you're completely uncomfortable. It usually reads on your face that you're uncomfortable. So definitely.

Margaux: So, Leen, you were saying you went into the store and asked the lady about all the different stitches and stuff. How did the rest of it go for you?

Leen: Yeah. So how did it even start? Southern Utah does not have that many places for women's professional clothing. So if you did . . . the only place that really had really nice suits were very expensive, like Dillard's. And I was not going to throw $500 on a suit, even though the department store lady was like, "You'll always need this. You should get it now. They'll never go on sale because you always need it." I'm like, "I'm broke. I'm applying to med school. I'm broke."

So I ended up going to a department . . . not a department store. Just another small store where they had . . . it was crazy. I don't know. I was like, "Okay, is the pantsuit too long? Is it too short? Is the stitching right? Is the color right? Does it match my suit?" It was so hard. It was so hard to find pants and a jacket that matched.

And the one thing they warned us about in this lecture was the stitching on the pants has to match the stitching on the jacket. And I've never worn a suit in my life.

Harjit: I wish I was there.

Leen: My mom was like, "What is this?"

Bushra: Can you imagine during your interview they're like closely examining your suit?

Leen: I know. But you know what? As a premed student who's freaked out about the interview, you don't think that. You're like, "Oh my gosh, I didn't think medical schools were this detailed with suits."

Harjit: As a premed student, you're just gulping up all the information.

Leen: You're just like,"Whatever."

Bushra: Oh, yeah.

Leen: And then you had to find a shirt that was neutral to those colors, but they didn't say black. It had to be white . . . or was it off-white? I think were the only two colors you could wear. And then the shoes had to be neutral. Black? No, nothing like . . . it was insane.

I mean, honestly, that one lecture, I even went up to him. I was like, "What about the women's side?" He's like, "Yeah, I don't know." I was like, "Thanks. I will try my best." And so our advisor, she helped us out. I mean, we would kind of show her our uniforms, I guess. They're not uniforms.

Harjit: Uniforms.

Leen: I mean, they felt that way. We'd show her the uniforms and . . . oh my gosh, I keep calling them uniforms. We'll show her the suits and she'll be like, "Yeah, that's great," or, "No, go get something else for that."

Harjit: That's hilarious.

Leen: It was insane. My mom was like, "No, this is crazy." This is just as bad as when she was in school in Palestine, where they had to wear uniforms. And you couldn't have even a little bit of stitching on the uniform or decorate it. She was like, "Med school is old school." I was like, "Yeah, I guess they are."

Margaux: Did you end up going with the matching stitches and the off-white or . . . I'm interested. What did you end up going with?

Leen: Well, I found a department store that had suits on sale, and I ended up going with those. It was the only suit that had pants with it. So the jacket came with the pants. I was like, "I'll just take it." If they care about the cross stitch, I'll make something up. I'll be like, "It's cultural."

Harjit: That is the best thing ever. "It's cultural."

Margaux: But that's a good point. And, Harjit, did you have any cultural experiences with your suit finding?

Harjit: Oh, my goodness. Okay. It's actually really, now that I think of it, a complicated story. So I did bioengineering, and in engineering there are not that many women who go into that field. So I remember there my mindset was always like, "I need to wear a suit. I have to wear black suit with a white shirt." And that's it. Makeup, put some lip gloss on, put some mascara, and that's enough.

I really didn't start wearing makeup I think until a year and a half ago. So I don't even think I thought about makeup at that time.

Sorry, I laughed so hard that I can't breathe.

Leen: Wait until you hear about the shoes.

Harjit: Wait, your shoes? Wait, I missed this, Leen.

Leen: I couldn't find shoes in my size completely black and neutral. So I ended up buying them like a size six and I just wore them all day.

Harjit: No. Why would you do that?

Leen: I wear size seven. There were no other shoes.

Harjit: That's insane.

Leen: I was very uncomfortable.

Bushra: Oh my god, your poor feet.

Harjit: Oh my god. I'm wearing the eyeliner that comes off when you cry, so don't make me laugh so hard.

Margaux: So this is how dressing for an interview should be, lighthearted and fun, not stressful. Finish your story, Harjit.

Harjit: Okay. So, like I was saying, I did bioengineering. So I was like, "I need to wear a suit. I cannot wear dresses. I cannot wear skirts." But as a person, I love all the things that are perceived feminine in society. So I love dressing up. I love makeup. So I remember always fighting the urge, like, "I want to wear a skirt." But then I was like, "No, I cannot do that because I want people to take me seriously."

So, to be rebellious, I remember I had to do a presentation for one of my bioengineering classes when I was a senior, and I wore a skirt, and I felt so good in it. I was like, "Oh, I look cute. I can present well." But then that got me thinking like, "What is all this unnecessary stress?"

So my sisters, they also . . . my older sister did her PhD in engineering. And my middle sister did engineering before, but then she went to med school. So I sat down and I had a conversation with them and they're like,"Yeah, we never wore skirts because we always wanted to be taken seriously." So then I was like, "Okay, I'm not going to go with that."

So then I talked to my middle sister and I was like, "You need to help me figure out an outfit for this interview. I'm so nervous. I need to look good." I didn't want my looks to be a factor into what type of candidate I would be, right? And then my sister made this point. She was like, "It's interesting because in med school all the women wear dresses and they're . . ."

What happened, Margaux?

Margaux: I just thought about her . . .

Harjit: You're not going to let me finish my story.

Margaux: You were looking at me. I was like, "Oh, god."

Harjit: So I remember my sister saying, "Yeah, in med school, women just wear what they want. If you want to wear a dress, you should wear a dress." But I was like, "No, no, no. I'm going to go with a suit."

So, like Leen said, $200 for a freaking suit, and that's cheap. That's the cheap end. So I was like, "[Monu 00:19:10], you already bought a suit. I'm not going to go shop for another suit because I don't have that kind of money. So I'm just going to use your suit." She's really tall. So we had to roll up the bottoms inward. It was hilarious. We were trying to figure out how we could do this.

So I wore basically . . . it was a gray color and a nude pink blouse. And then for makeup, again, they want the natural look. So I did a light brown lipstick. And I did eyeliner and mascara. Sometimes I like doing dramatic eyeliner, but I knew I had to keep it simple for the interview.

But now that I think of it, the amount of time I feel like people spent prepping for the interview or actually doing the things that I think are important, I wasted more time on figuring out what to wear.

And also, another point. A lot of the stuff we wear . . . women's clothing doesn't have pockets. So then . . .

Bushra: Oh my gosh. Can I just say how ridiculous that is? Where am I supposed to put my lip gloss, guys?

Harjit: I know.

Leen: Your cellphone too.

Bushra: My cellphone, my wallet. Anyway . . .

Harjit: So I also had to figure out a purse. So I was like, "Can I wear this purse? Can I wear this purse?" And my sister mostly was laughing at me. She's like, "You know what, Harjit? Just be yourself because that's what's important." But I was like, "I'm so stressed out." She was like, "I was too. But let me tell you that that's something that . . . it's important, but it's not that important."

And so I just remember feeling so stressed out, and I was actually really upset about the whole thing because I did have a conversation with her. I did engineering in the past, like I told you, and I was just like, "Why is it that me being a person who likes, again, the things that are perceived feminine in society, I like that, why can't I do that?"

But then on the other side, what if I didn't like any of that? What if I didn't like makeup? What if I didn't like dresses? Then there's also that thing . . . it's almost a balance. I've noticed people be like, "Oh, you should dress feminine, but then you should also not dress feminine." So it's a whole bunch of confusion, to be honest.

Margaux: Yeah. Harjit, I think that's actually a really interesting point. I have a story from when I was interviewing the first time after I was super stressed about what to wear, and the makeup and the hair. And in my interview group, there was another woman who wasn't wearing any makeup, had her hair in a simple ponytail like I usually wear mine. And in a way, she was like a mirror for me and my normal self.

I saw that as like, "Oh, wow. Okay. So if she can do it and she's here . . ." It gave me confidence. I don't know where she ended up or her story of it, but I think it is important to realize that there are women who like to wear dresses and there are women who don't. And there should be aplace for all of those opinions and feelings in the interview world and profession.

Harjit: It's, again, like what you said, Margaux. People have varying identities and then they have varying ways they want to express themselves. And I think it's really sad. Leen used the word uniform, but it almost is like a uniform and, like Bushra said, homogenizing people interviewing. That's that whole mentality of we're creating individuals that do a certain thing, but they all do it the same way. Do you know what I mean?

Bushra: So I agree with you. I know you said that back in the day it was supposed to set everyone . . . you're not supposed to tell everyone apart based off how they look, and so the interview process is where their personality should come through. But I almost feel like it does the exact opposite.

I feel like in preparing for the interviews, you're almost searching for what's perceived as the right answer to whatever question that they throw at you. And a lot of that time, I feel like the way that you answer some of those questions is not necessarily how you would answer those questions in your real life.

I almost feel like it's better to get a sense of a person as they are in their real life versus how they are when they're being watched, or when they're afraid of saying the wrong thing, or whatever.

Harjit: Yeah. I had so much stress and so much heartache. I remember the night before my interview, I was on the phone crying to my sister and I was like, "I am Harjit and I know that I'm good enough to be here. I know that this is my dream. I'm passionate about medicine. And I am just so worried about what I should say, what people will think of how I look, what people will think of what I'm doing." And the whole time, I was like, "I'm literally silencing myself."

I don't think I've talked about this a lot, but growing up I felt very silenced. And I was just having all those feelings rush back to me, and it was making me really sad.

But I will say, at the interview, I think by the end I was so happy because I was fully myself. I said everything that I wanted to and I portrayed myself as who I am. Obviously, they might have liked it because I'm here.

Margaux: So, to build off that point, Harjit, of feeling silenced or not yourself, and what Bushra was talking about too, is I didn't feel myself because I had to . . . sort of felt like I had to force myself to wear makeup and look a certain way. But what I will say is that it was refreshing to see the women who were wearing the bold lipstick or just the ponytail . . .

Bushra: Got their highlight going. "I've got a nice highlight going and some blush. Look at me now."

Margaux: Looking back, it was refreshing to see those women who did choose to be themselves. And at the time, I envied them. And then when I interviewed the second time around, I tried to do that and be more of myself. And so maybe that's why I ended up getting in the second time around. Who knows?

But I would say that's a very valuable point. If you don't feel yourself in what you're wearing and how you look, then you're not going to . . . your answers are not going to come through as yourself either.

Harjit: And I would say if they can't take you for who you are, then they also don't deserve you. You know what I mean? And again, that's me at a very low position, I guess, saying that. But I feel like people don't deserve your expertise, your strength, your knowledge if they can accept you for who you are.

Moving forward, what do you guys think are suggestions we should give to especially women about how they should dress for med school interviews, even interviews in general, since our audience is pretty wide?

Bushra: I think don't stress too much about what you're going to wear. Stress more about who you want to be presented as. Who are you and how do you plan on letting the interviewers know?

As far as what you're going to wear, obviously, choose something you're comfortable in. And I think you should express yourself the way that you want to. But I think the key should be just being respectful to the interview process, I think, as far as just to the staff and the people that are there. I feel like people should know that the interview day as far as med school is the entire day. So just because you're great with the actual interviewer, it doesn't give you the right to be rude to the staff or whoever that you interact with that day. Regardless if you're having a good day or not, I think put your best foot forward, but also be true to who you are.

Margaux: I second that, Bushra. And so, right before we started recording, I talked to someone who is an interviewer here in the University of Utah, and they wished to remain anonymous, but they did give me some quotes or some tips.

I asked them if they do notice what interviewees wear. And the answer was that they don't usually notice or pay attention . . . like, they don't usually notice or make judgments. The thing that stands out the most is whether the student is uncomfortable. Like, if you're fidgeting a lot, that comes through.

So, back to Bushra's point, be comfortable in your suit or your outfits. Whatever you choose to wear, make sure it's comfortable, that you don't need to pay attention to it, because that is something that will be noticed. So that goes for shoes, and hair, whatever you choose to wear.

And then the second thing I asked about was makeup. We talked about some women don't wear any. Some like to wear a lot. And they said that they don't know what your face looks like before. So, going in, we tend to put a lot of pressure on ourselves of how we look because we always know what we look like. But remember, your interviewer doesn't know you or doesn't know what you look like. So go in wearing the makeup that you feel comfortable wearing. They just said, "Don't look like the MAC counter," aka too much. There is a "too much." But within your own comfort limits, it's okay.

Bushra: Not too much harsh contour.

Margaux: Well, I don't know what that means, but yeah, sure.

Harjit: The pink eyeshadow.

Bushra: That's like if you're going on TV.

Margaux: Take that as you will.

Bushra: Lights, camera, action.

Margaux: Hopefully, that reassures you from an interviewer standpoint.

Harjit: That's nice.

Margaux: Being comfortable and just being you. And I think that will . . . otherwise, they don't really seem to notice was this person's take on it. As long as you're comfortable, that's my key thing.

Harjit: Leen, what do you think? Any suggestions?

Leen: I mean, it's what you guys said already. Don't stress about the little nitpicky details. Even though as a premed applying it seems like it's the world, again, I think your personality, your charisma, your passion for medicine, I think that is definitely above all in your interview day.

And I feel that's the point of an interview, right? It's not to analyze your clothes and it's not a fashion interview. It's more, "We want to know who you are as a person."

Harjit: I think it shows on your face if you're not comfortable because your expressions could change because of that, and that's not really who you are either. I think being yourself is the second most important thing.

And I think, finally, I do want to say that, we are talking about these whole processes, but I think we're very fortunate that we got an interview. And so I think, like Bushra said, it's really important that we're respectful of the people around us and the people who have given us this opportunity to get to know us as people.

So that's really what I would say. I think that you don't need to waste a whole bunch of time on picking the right suit, doing your makeup. It should be as little of time as you want to spend or as much time as you want to spend. Some people enjoy that. Some people enjoy shopping for their suit and deciding what they want to wear. So it should really be about you, about being comfortable, and about being respectful.

Margaux: Despite what media and society has historically told women about the way we look and how we should feel, I think that one of the ways we can start to push through that is to be empowered to be yourself. And hopefully, today we have encouraged you to do that, whether through learning through our own mistakes or our own decisions and stories. So, yeah, go forth and interview fashionably.

Harjit: Happy interview days.

Bushra: Or unfashionably if you so choose.

Margaux: Yeah, whatever fashionably means to you. Define it yourself.

Harjit: I love that.

Margaux: Thank you for listening. Please subscribe and we'll see . . . hear you . . . we won't hear you next time, either. Join us next time.

Leen: By the way, "Bundle Of Hers" is also on Facebook and Instagram. And please leave a review for us on iTunes. Bye.